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Thread: V30's - I like the 70 watters better...

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    Default V30's - I like the 70 watters better...

    ...with my UL.
    I like V30's, but the Mesa 70w UK V30 seems to suit my VHT much better than the 60w China V30. The Mesa V30's are smoother and thicker sounding. Really aggressive without being offensive. My UL has a somewhat bright and middy voicing, which almost works with the standard Chinese 60w V30's. Except they are a bit too thin, raspy and bright for the amp.
    I have V12 Legends too, but they lack...something, when paired with the UL.

    So before you discount V30's with your VHT/Fryette, I recommend trying the Mesa version of the speaker.

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    If I remember correctly, reading the answer from Fryette regarding their speakers and they claimed that the Vintage 30 speaker is in reality more close to 75 W rather than 60 W. I don't know the math behind this statement so maybe someone can chime in here.

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    Yeah, could very well be. But the difference between the Mesa V30 and the regular Celestion V30 has more to do with the sound than the wattage. The wattage is just an identifier in this case.
    My understanding is that most all speaker wattage ratings by the manufacturer are on the conservative side.

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    What Van Noord is saying relates to both of your questions, bleed.

    The 30 in V30 has nothing to do with power handling. But making a distinction between the Mesa version and the off-the-shelf version is legit, even though it has little to do with actual power handling capacity. The rated power handling of the V30 of any version (see below) is 65W.

    The Mesa version is OEM. This is the T4416 model, which is a 16 ohm speaker. It is made in England specifically for Mesa. But Mesa didn't specify it that way. From what we were told by Celestion around 1997-8, Celestion changed the model T3904 (16 ohm) V30 design in the early 90s to make it easier and cheaper to produce. Mesa didn't like it and insisted on the original version, which then became an OEM model. The 8 ohm version of the Mesa speaker is the T4335. To get an OEM model from Celestion requires a large order. This speaker was made on a separate production line from the off-the-shelf V30, which as Van Nord says is fizzy and thin sounding by comparison.

    There is a third 16 ohm version only used by Marshall - T3897 - which is even brighter.

    When we were using Celestion speakers, we found out about the existence of the T4416 which we had purchased from our German distributor at the time and asked Celestion about it. They had claimed that they didn't offer OEM varitions of the V30, but changed their story when we sent them a T4416 "for evaluation". Then a new rep called us, confirmed that there were in fact two separate V30 production lines and agreed to make us a special T Number OEM speaker. After a couple of months back and forth, we placed a large order and requested the special number assignment, at which time they cancelled the order and reneged on the deal. That's when we switched to Eminence. We haven't used Celestions speakers since.

    It's not that V30s don't sound good with our amps. It's just that the T4416 sounds better. The T3904 is now made in China and after all these years, the P50E does what we wanted Celestion to do originally - and does it better, in fact - so we don't need Celestions help.

    So, if you like V30s, there is nothing about the amp design that will be compromised using a V30. Our amps are not voiced "only" for the P50E. What is optimized for the P50E is the cabinet design. In that, the P50 will perform better in our cab than any others.

    And now you know that when you say V30, you could be talking about 5 different speakers - that all sound slightly different:*

    T3903 Standard 8 ohm
    T3904 Standard 16 ohm
    T3987 Marshall OEM 16 ohm
    T4416 Mesa OEM 16 ohm
    T4335 Mesa OEM 8 ohm

    *When you change the impedance rating of the speaker, you also change the inductance of the coil which changes the resonant frequency among other things. Also an 8 ohm speaker will be driven by the amp set at 8 ohms which lowers the amplifier impedance (compared to the 16 ohm setup), and thereby lowers the amplifier damping factor, which flattens out the system (amp plus cab system) frequency response and resonant behavior. So if you have 2 identical amps and 2 identical cabs - one cab loaded with 8 ohm speakers and amp set to 8 next to one loaded with 16 ohm speakers and amp set to 16, they will sound noticably different. The 16 ohm rig will usually sound brighter and deeper.

    Personally I prefer the 4416, but not in a Recto 4X12. And therein lies the rabbit hole - you can't accurately compare like speakers in unlike cabs.
    Last edited by sfryette; 12-18-2012 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Adding yet more mind numbing detail...

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    Thanks for posting this ... I had heard most of this before / but this is much more clear.

    Just wondering if the Marshall V30 has always been different ? Or about what time it changed ?
    The fact that Stephen appears from nowhere, is sentenced to death in an emotional public trial without anyone interfering at all and is then altogether forgotten as if nothing happened, is already suspicious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfryette View Post
    When you change the impedance rating of the speaker, you also change the inductance of the coil which changes the resonant frequency among other things. So if you have 2 identical amps and 2 identical cabs - one cab loaded with 8 ohm speakers and amp set to 8 next to one loaded with 16 ohm speakers and amp set to 16, they will sound noticably different. The 16 ohm rig will usually sound brighter and deeper.
    I bet we're going to see this paragraph quoted a lot in the future......

    Giga

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    Thank you for the very informative post. I had no idea there was that many different versions of that speaker. That cleared some things up for me, I always thought it was the amp who made most of the difference when you use different ohm ratings. That makes sense because people are always talking about the difference between speakers with the same name but with different resistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga View Post
    I bet we're going to see this paragraph quoted a lot in the future......

    Giga
    Check it now. More crosseye factor added...
    Steven Michael Fryette
    Rantmeister In Chief
    www.facebook.com/steven.fryette


    "What I create, I can destroy!" - Boris Karloff (Nightkey, 1937)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfryette View Post
    So if you have 2 identical amps and 2 identical cabs - one cab loaded with 8 ohm speakers and amp set to 8 next to one loaded with 16 ohm speakers and amp set to 16, they will sound noticably different. The 16 ohm rig will usually sound brighter and deeper.
    So, by extension, what would be the sound of an amp set to 4 ohm (2902) into a cab set to 4 ohm (Standard Recto 4x12", in stereo)?
    Thanks!

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    This is all the versions I have found so far...

    T3896 8 ohm Original Marshall Labeled

    T3897 16 ohm Marshall labeled

    T3903 8 ohm Celestion Labeled

    T3904 16 ohm Celestion Labeled

    T4335 8 ohm Mesa Labeled

    T4416 16 ohm Mesa Labeled

    T5321 16 ohm Marshall Mode Four

    T5794A G12-60 S.E. 8 ohm
    Special Edition

    T5489 16 ohm
    Relic 30

    T5401B Vintage 30 8 ohm
    Bad Cat version

    T5731B G12- Vintage 30 16 ohm
    Dave Mustaine V30

    T5225 16 ohm 1777 cone
    Hughes and Kettner

    T5273 8 ohm 1777 cone
    Hughes and Kettner

    T3904A Vintage 30 16 ohm
    25th Anniversary

    These are all slightly different sounding Vintage 30.

    "When you change the impedance rating of the speaker, you also change the inductance of the coil which changes the resonant frequency among other things. So if you have 2 identical amps and 2 identical cabs - one cab loaded with 8 ohm speakers and amp set to 8 next to one loaded with 16 ohm speakers and amp set to 16, they will sound noticeably different. The 16 ohm rig will usually sound brighter and deeper."

    T3896 G12V 8 Ohm Vintage 30, Marshall label, 70w, 444 cone

    T3897 G12V 16 Ohm Vintage 30, Marshall label, 70w, 444 cone

    T3903 Vintage 30 8 Ohm cone stamp – 444 (standard specification)

    T3904 Vintage 30 15 Ohm cone stamp – 444 (standard specification)

    T4335 Vintage 30 8 Ohm cone stamp – 444 – Old original spec – now Mesa OEM

    T4416 Vintage 30 16 Ohm cone stamp – 444 – Old original spec – now Mesa OEM

    T5321 G12 Vintage MF 16 Ohm Custom designed for use in Marshall MF series cabs. G12-CV60.

    "What I was referring to was the construction of the speaker itself. Taking a 16 ohm vintage 30 for example, if you simply decrease the speaker voice coil turns to make it an 8 ohm speaker, the chances that it would sound the same in all other respects are slim. By playing with other factors such as wire gauge and doping, they can me made to sound similar, but not identical.

    So, it's important to know that when you are comparing cabs. Comparing two identical cabs operated by identical amplifiers, but one cab loaded with 8 ohm V30s and the amp set to 8 ohms vs one cab loaded with 16 ohm V30s and the amp set to 16 ohms, you are going to hear a pronounced difference in sound and performance. The differences will be partly the difference in electrical characteristics of the speakers and partly the resulting change in reactance of the amplifier.

    Even so, I think you'll find that two 8 ohm speakers wired in series for a 16 ohm load will produce a deeper wider sound."
    Last edited by stephen sawall; 3 Days Ago at 01:32 AM.
    The fact that Stephen appears from nowhere, is sentenced to death in an emotional public trial without anyone interfering at all and is then altogether forgotten as if nothing happened, is already suspicious.

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